Curse

Riot Narita · Dec 26, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So explain by what logic you deem it to be fantasy?

You took what I said and invented some new meanings for it, and added things I didn't even say. Since I know what I said, it takes no logic at all conclude that your version is fantasy.

You took this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

I know exactly what a precedent is, and I also know that there is no precedent in GW for the kind of fantasy world you have created.

Actually the precedents are: microstransactions have been here from the start - character slots, PvP unlock packs etc... and they're here to stay. The microstransactions offer convenience or cosmetics, but do not make your ingame characters richer or more powerful ingame.

Only expansions or new campaigns do that (new skills, new professions), but those do not fit my definition of microtransations. They come in boxes.

And turned it into this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So let me get this straight.

Are you going to sit there and say that GW2 will ONLY have the same number of overpriced NCSoft store transactions available as GW1, or less for that matter?

For real?

Is that your idea of "logic"? Is that how you "get things straight"? Where did I say anything about the number of store transactions? Or that the number would stay the same in GW2?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Its already been shown that ANet is perfectly willing and able to deviate from their promised business model within the same game.

Shown by who? You? In your fantasy world where oranges are extrapolated from apples? Uh huh.

Show me where A-Net made any "promises" about their business model. And how they then deviated from said promises.

Zehnchu · Dec 27, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

I wish that ArenaNet would just break down and do what I wished that they had done months/years ago: Just start selling PvE title points in the darn store. I certainly would pay, and I bet thousands of players would do it too. PvE Titles are so meaningless nowadays that nobody would really care anymore.

To max a title, the game becomes so grind oriented that it's not even funny. I find it so funny that most people say that other games have intense grind in them, because in THOSE games, usually in six months you can max a rank or get a rare item that you wanted, especially if you played every day and were making some small effort.

As much as I joke around about this I know where you are coming from. Some of those need some major retwiking, but that's for another thread.

Regulus X · Dec 27, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I bought one set to say that I have it. The price was a bit of a rip-off for the amount of effort that does into design [which is little to nothing tbh]. But it's a clever business move to make nonetheless because there're plenty of suckers with such an addiction to the game that they'll probably put the costume feature on all of their multiple accounts because they're compulsive enough to squander and buy into the rarity of the costume.

zidane888 · Dec 27, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

I bought one set to say that I have it. The price was a bit of a rip-off for the amount of effort that does into design [which is little to nothing tbh].

You must be a phenomenal texture and concept artist to make that statement. Any chance you could share some of your work?

(I'm not entirely dissagreeing about the price mind you).

gone · Dec 27, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

anet should have cashed in on this a looooooooooong time ago. they would have made a mint from the RMT trade. I'm willing to bet more people than you think, and know, RMT'd in this game. I would also like to bet that most people know at least one person in the game that did/does RMT transactions. If it's going to happen, and it is, why not make money from it? I mean, why let someone beat you to it and steal food from your plate?

In all reality, I must commend & condemn Anet for not doing this because I would have implemented it into the game after the first million or so went to some sweat-shop(s).

-if money is to be made it might as well go to the makers. not the parasitical gold diggers it creates. Any and all effort anet makes to grab a little cash is small beans compared to the money that they already lost..at this point in time...

Kaleban · Dec 27, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

LOLFAIL AGAIN

So you must be an absolute tool, since you can't seem to fathom the actual point of the whole argument.

You're contending I can't tell the future. You're right, I cannot. What I can do, and what every other business and economic forecaster on the planet can do, is take a series of precedents, combined with good business sense and market savvy, and extrapolate likely scenarios for future profits.

IF the Costume Pack and other MACROtransactions available in the NCSoft store reach a certain threshold that is established by their sales' guys, then its all but assured that GW2 will include more, as it would have been shown the market (i.e. playerbase) is willing and able to bear the cost of such.

So please, stop whining about how I "twisted your words" (I didn't, I just assumed you were intelligent enough to have a decent argument), and learn some reading comprehension.

The short, short version: MACROtransaction success = more of them. Any business that DIDN'T follow through on a successful model would be just as dumb as the playerbase that buys into it in the first place.

So those that support MACROtransactions in GW1 (of which all are extremely overpriced for what they offer, in comparison to the same content $9.99 would provide in a full expansion) are directly supporting an expansion of the model in future products and sequels.

I would MUCH rather pay $49.99 for a fully developed expansion, perhaps a new class or two, multiple new areas, skills and more, rather than 1/5th the price for two costumes.

I mean, how can people support a transaction such as $9.99 for ONE Xunlai Storage Pane when they can buy an entire new account these days for around the same price?? NCSoft/ANet and the players that brown nosingly support this model are just plain ridiculous.

Kawil · Dec 27, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Kaleban, I get your passion and I assume you're a relatively intelligent person. Especially since you throw out words/phrases such as 'business sense', 'market savvy' and 'extrapolate'. Now let's use that logic you keep talking about.

I'm sure you understand (and I'm only speaking about the average American consumer) that we are LAZY. Our thinking is..."why would I buy an entire account for more storage when I can just get another pane for $10?" Again, I mean the average consumer. Another example..."I'm gonna get the unlock and pet unlock packs...because I need them". We are LAZY. We'd rather pay for conveniences rather than practicality. Don't blame A-Net for tapping into this. In fact, don't blame everyone else either, it's simply the way things are. People show what they want with their wallet...not with words.

With that said, do I want micros? No, I don't. My wife got the costume pack for one simple reason...she liked the way it made her characters look (btw, she really likes the way dervs look with them, lol). Was I upset about this micro? No and the reason is because it doesn't effect gameplay. When or IF GW and/or GW2 starts going weapon/armor/gear micros, then I will be very upset and so will many others and justifiably so.

As a business, A-Net (or whoever) owes us only one thing...putting out products that WE want. Use your wallets accordingly. I, for one, am watching this closely but for now I'm satisfied with the products they have put out.

Riot Narita · Dec 27, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So you must be an absolute tool, since you can't seem to fathom the actual point of the whole argument.

You have no counters to what I said, so you hide behind "LOLfail" because you do not dare quote what I actually said, and you turn to cheap insults. And change the subject, because you can't defend the previous nonsense you wrote.

As I said before: Show me the "promises" that you think A-Net made about their business model. And how they then deviated from said promises.

You can't, can you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

What I can do, and what every other business and economic forecaster on the planet can do,

You consider yourself a business and economic forecaster? Dude, I think you will be more successful if you concentrate on comedy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

is take a series of precedents, combined with good business sense and market savvy, and extrapolate likely scenarios for future profits.

The precedents are:
GW has had microtransactions pretty much since it first started.
Stuff sold by microtransactions offer only convenience or cosmetics.
None of the stuff sold by microtransactions makes ingame characters richer, or more powerful.

You take these precedents and, instead of predicting that GW2 will follow a similar pattern, you come up with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

rather soon, to even PLAY ANet games in conjunction with NCSoft, you'll have to buy the base package of X, and if you even want a chance in areas outside the starting noob zone, you'll need to buy Y, and once you get to Y, you'll HAVE to buy Z or every monster will kill you, and then A and B will be necessary to buy in the online store for you to even be competitive in PvP, then C, D and E... etc.

And you really think that's a reasonable prediction? What precedent do you have for making such a mighty leap - from only paying for pretties and convenience... to paying just to have "a chance in areas outside the starting noob zone" or remaining "competitive"?

It's possible, in a theoretical worst-case-scenario kind of way. But is it likely to actually happen? No, of course not. If A-net "extrapolates" the success of their microtransactions... they'll do it by adding more of the same type of cosmetic or convenience items (there is precedent in GW for this). People who want them, buy them - ANet makes some money. People who don't want them, don't buy them - and their gameplay is unaffected. Everybody wins.

They won't start charging you to progress in the game, or to stay competitive (there is no GW precedent for this). Why not? Because taking things to that extreme would turn away too many customers - the customers who like GW because there are no monthly fees, and because their gameplay is unaffected by which microtransactions they choose to pay for (if any). If ANet makes it so their gameplay IS affected by which microtransactions they pay for... they're likely to turn their backs. And I believe that's a LOT of customers. Goodbye win-win.

Even allowing for theatrical exaggeration, your prediction is plain crazy.

DRGN · Dec 27, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

The precedents are:
GW has had microtransactions pretty much since it first started.

Uh...what? I've played since 2005 and I don't remember ANY microtransactions of this kind until relatively recently. The in-game store wasn't even around period till the middle of 2006...

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 27, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I refuse to buy any of the "new additions" simply because they are stupidly overpriced for what they actually are. Setting everything at the 10 dollar mark is retarded. I mean...really...10 dollars for a new outfit? Add another 10 dollars, and you can BUY ANOTHER GAME.

YunSooJin · Dec 27, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I refuse to buy any of the "new additions" simply because they are stupidly overpriced for what they actually are. Setting everything at the 10 dollar mark is retarded. I mean...really...10 dollars for a new outfit? Add another 10 dollars, and you can BUY ANOTHER GAME.

yeah but the game won't make you look cool!!!

Riot Narita · Dec 27, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Uh...what? I've played since 2005 and I don't remember ANY microtransactions of this kind until relatively recently. The in-game store wasn't even around period till the middle of 2006...

Yes, online shop was launched mid 2006, but it was known to be in development long before that. Character slots were among the first microtransactions available.

I said "pretty much" from the start - deliberately imprecise, because it's such a long time ago that I couldn't remember exactly. And that's the point: microtransactions are not new. They've been in GW for a long long time.

Cacheelma · Dec 28, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you dont care how they are going to support themselves then you really have no right to disapprove. I find it funny that this game is choked full of people who just want everything in life to be free, thus not caring about how a business is going to survive to meet their demands.

Want everything in life to be free? Are you kidding?

I did pay for this game. All 4 of them (yes, I had a moment of insanity and bought GWEN after telling the world I wasn't going to. Sue me). 3 of those as collector's editions. Is it too much of me to expect the things I've bought to be what I've paid for?

Sure, online games change. I know that. But is it wrong to feel cheated when said game got changed into something else entirely, something I wouldn't EVER dreamed of buying?

If I have a choice to pay to get something better out of this game. I mean to REALLY get something out of it, not just this FALSE HOPE that the next game (that I'd have to pay EVEN MORE for) will be better or that they MIGHT be something better coming to this game. I'd gladly pay for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

When does no monthly fees ever imply no micro transaction?

When it's advertised AS SUCH? Or you're saying you weren't here before the game was released? That you haven't seen a page in a gaming magazine where Arenanet devs SIGNED on a page that this game won't have monthly-fee OR microtransaction?

I'm not even sure we're in disagreement here Daesu. I've played monthly-fee games. I'm even playing one right now. I've played games with micro-,well even MACRO-transactions. And despite the miniscule free time I have these days, I'm playing TWO of them (so it's 3 in total not counting GW). Not to mention other offline games I have on my PC hoping I'd somehow miraculously have time to play them. And I don't regret any of these.

I know what I'd get from a game with monthly-fee or microtransaction so I never hesitate to play them. Whether the game actually deliver or not is another story entirely. But when a game CHANGES into something else, that's where it becomes a problem.

DRGN · Dec 28, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Want everything in life to be free? Are you kidding?

Thanks for not taking the crap that people all over Guru have been throwing out lately, which can be summed up as "shut up", "you have no right to express your opinion", etc. when a criticism is levied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Yes, online shop was launched mid 2006, but it was known to be in development long before that. Character slots were among the first microtransactions available.

I said "pretty much" from the start - deliberately imprecise, because it's such a long time ago that I couldn't remember exactly. And that's the point: microtransactions are not new. They've been in GW for a long long time.

First, I think it's hard to compare character slots with costumes. They're apples and oranges for various reasons; you get a number of them by default, you don't run around wearing a character slot, etc. It's a lesser point, though I'll expound on it if necessary.

Second, it's hardly a "long long" time. The number of microtransactions exploded after the release of Eye of the North. What was in the store before that? Character slots and games. The PvP version of the game, the skill unlock packs, the ability to buy the BMP(which was previously a promotional thing), the makeovers, pet unlock packs, name changes, and now the costumes; all those came after Eye of the North, and a number of them came within the last year or year and a half. I'm not arguing that all of those are horrible terrible game killers. I'm arguing that they are a pretty new thing, that they've increased a lot lately, and that a year is not a "long long" time when you consider how long the game has been around.

Riot Narita · Dec 28, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

First, I think it's hard to compare character slots with costumes. They're apples and oranges for various reasons; you get a number of them by default, you don't run around wearing a character slot, etc.

They do different things, but I consider them both microtransactions: you pay extra for them, they add only convenience or cosmetics, they are not required to play the game, etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Second, it's hardly a "long long" time.

Yes it is, if you consider character slots to be microtransactions. Which I do.

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

LOLFAIL YET AGAIN

I don't bother quoting people out of context to make a bad and false argument, so no I'm not going to quote what you said.

I'm also NOT going to post links to NCSoft press releases about their NCoin system that is literally a monetized microtransaction system used currently for Exteel in which they claim such a system would not work for Guild Wars and would be a bad move trying to integrate it.

Perhaps because GW is already monetized through the NCSoft store with direct monetary transactions? Nah couldn't be.

I'm also NOT going to post a timeframe showing when the Store started selling stuff like ONE Xunlai pane for $9.99, among all the other overpriced stuff because such information is available with a simple Google search and I don't feel like doing your research for you.

What I WILL do is say that my gf was curious about what I was typing, when I told her and explained what the price was for various things through the NCSoft store, her mouth dropped, and her incredulous response was "and people actually pay THAT much?" at which point she laughed rather uproariously. I could go into the unflattering things she said about people's intelligence, but that would be belaboring the obvious.

Suffice to say, the store is overpriced, the model has changed since the game came out, and ANet is gouging its playerbase for cash.

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Yes it is, if you consider character slots to be microtransactions. Which I do.

You're off by a decimal point. $9.99 is in now way "micro" except to idiots with waay too much cash and too little common sense.

$0.99 is what most would consider "micro" especially for such things as ONE extra character slot, or ONE extra storage pane, multiple of which can be gotten through buying a new account for $15 or so.

DRGN · Dec 28, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Yes it is, if you consider character slots to be microtransactions. Which I do.

Thanks for not even bothering to read the rest of my post. It says a lot that you berate someone for not quoting a post and then do the exact same thing yourself on the same page...

I'm not even sure what your point is. Yeah, character slots were added over a year after the game's release. That's ALL they sold for about a year and a half. It took two and a half years into the game's release for them to sell something besides character slots. Are you saying selling one item is the same as what they're doing now? Adding all those things I listed above after Eye of the North was released isn't significant because "they sold character slots before"? Going from selling one thing to a metric asston, all released after the final expansion's release, doesn't represent a change in their model or anything?

Riot Narita · Dec 28, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Thanks for not even bothering to read the rest of my post.

I read what you posted. You think character slots are not microtransactions. You think GW's microtransactions are very recent.

I posted that I disagree with both those points, and gave my reasons.

Did you make some other points that I missed? Or that required me to quote your entire post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

It says a lot that you berate someone for not quoting a post and then do the exact same thing yourself on the same page...

I berated someone who turned to cheap insults, and dodged the points I raised, and attempted to write off everything I said by misquoting it as "LOLfail". It doesn't matter if they quote me at all, if they can counter my points.

It says a lot about YOU, that you couldn't see that. Especially given the rest of what I said (could it be that it's YOU who isn't bothering to read what others say?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

I'm not even sure what your point is. Yeah, character slots were added over a year after the game's release. That's ALL they sold for about a year and a half. It took two and a half years into the game's release for them to sell something besides character slots. Are you saying selling one item is the same as what they're doing now? Adding all those things I listed above after Eye of the North was released isn't significant because "they sold character slots before"? Going from selling one thing to a metric asston, all released after the final expansion's release, doesn't represent a change in their model or anything?

My point is:
There have been microstransactions in GW for a long time.
Sure, there's a lot more available now... but they all have something in common: they are optional, they do not make ingame characters richer or more powerful, they do not affect the gameplay for people who don't buy them.

There is no evidence or precedent that suggests A-Net's future microtransactions will be any different. Nothing to suggest that they will start to affect gameplay, be required to progress etc, the way Kaleban suggests.

And I pointed out why I think they will avoid changing the type of things offered in microtransactions.

Riot Narita · Dec 28, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I don't bother quoting people out of context to make a bad and false argument, so no I'm not going to quote what you said.

You also don't bother to quote people when it would require you to produce counters to their arguments, and you don't have any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'm also NOT going to post links to NCSoft press releases about their NCoin system that is literally a monetized microtransaction system used currently for Exteel in which they claim such a system would not work for Guild Wars and would be a bad move trying to integrate it.

Perhaps because GW is already monetized through the NCSoft store with direct monetary transactions? Nah couldn't be.

I'm also NOT going to post a timeframe showing when the Store started selling stuff like ONE Xunlai pane for $9.99, among all the other overpriced stuff because such information is available with a simple Google search and I don't feel like doing your research for you.

What I WILL do is say that my gf was curious about what I was typing, when I told her and explained what the price was for various things through the NCSoft store, her mouth dropped, and her incredulous response was "and people actually pay THAT much?" at which point she laughed rather uproariously. I could go into the unflattering things she said about people's intelligence, but that would be belaboring the obvious.

Did you make a point somewhere in there? If so, what is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Suffice to say, the store is overpriced,

Uh-huh. Are we getting to the real crux of the matter now? Did you make all your ultra-pessimistic predictions and "sky is falling because of microtransactions" posts... simply because you think the stuff in the store is overpriced? That's a valid opinion, you could have just said so and left it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

the model has changed since the game came out, and

I disagree. I've already explained why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

ANet is gouging its playerbase for cash.

They're selling their stuff to eager customers, who are willing to pay thge price. People who don't like them or don't want to pay... are unaffected. How is that "gouging its playerbase"? Nobody is forced to buy anything they don't want, and gameplay is unnaffected if anyone chooses not to buy.